: : : : Вы забыли про:
: : : : "А я уже объяснил Комптон эффект в SCI.PHYSICS с волновой точки зрения."
: : : :
: : :
: : : Присоединяюсь к вопросу: не могли бы Вы прямо здесь (вкратце, в двух словах) описать, каким образом происходит Комптоновское рассеяние с Вашей точки зрения?
: :
: : Попутный наводящий Вопрос:
: :
: : Укажите на эксперименты, где наблюдается
: :
: : Комптоновское рассеяние на СВОБОДНЫХ ЧАСТИЦАХ
: :
:
:
: Я непременно воспользуюсь Вашим предложением и как-нибудь в свободное время займусь библиографическими поисками.
: Но давайте все же не отвлекаться от темы и вначале проясним вопрос по _Вашей_ точке зрения на эффект Комптона (на _обычный_ эффект Комптона, тот самый, который отнаблюдал сам Комптон). Итак, по-Вашему, фотонов нет, я правильно понял? отчего же тогда мы видим смещение частоты рассеянного рентгена?
:
: : Если Вы этого не можете сделать, то привлеките QM.
: :
: : Не сможете сами, тогда я Вам дам объяснение...
: :
: : : И, может быть, - заодно уж - про красную границу фотоэффекта?
: :
:
: Аналогичное предложение: все-таки, если Вы считаете, что фотонов не существует, чем объясняется красная граница?
:
: : Оппять привлеките QM, и не СПАСАЙТЕ репутацию ШАРЛАТАНА и снобистского политически ангаЖИРованнога камитету...
:
: Спасибо за совет, но я ведь не просил никого спасать, равно как и не навязывался в спасатели. Вы выдвинули некий необщепринятый тезис - я и Vallav задали Вам вполне естественный наводящий вопрос. Если Вам есть что сказать, ответьте, пожалуйста.
пожалуйста, Мне Вам есть что сказать, ответ:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.physics.el...
========================
From: a_n_timof...@my-deja.com (Aleksandr Timofeev)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.physics.particle,sci.physics.electromag
Subject: Re: Photon Wave-Particle Duality
Date: 25 Sep 2001 03:35:38 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Lines: 368
NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.85.218.66
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Sep 2001 10:35:38 GMT
Eric Prebys <pre...@fnal.gov> wrote in message news:<@>...
> Aleksandr Timofeev wrote:
> >
> > Eric Prebys <pre...@fnal.gov> wrote in message
> > news:<@>...
> > > Aleksandr Timofeev wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > 1. the most universal tool circumscribing
> > > > transformation of frequency are the formal mathematical methods
> > > > of radio physics of non-linear processes.
> > > > These methods do not use a hypothesis of photons.
> > > >
> > >
> > > But as I've said again, and again, and again, and again, and again,
> > > a "photon" is nothing but a classical EM field
> >
> > With this definition I completely agree, but with what purpose
> > you introduce for an electromagnetic wave a completely excessive
> > additional term "photon"?
> >
> > > a "photon" is nothing but a classical EM field with a quantized
> > > interaction.
> >
> > With this definition I completely disagree since a fundamental
> > property of quantum systems is the absorption and radiation of
> > electromagnetic waves by quantum portions.
> >
>
> Well, all I can suggest is that you read some physics books. That
> is the most useful one-line definition of a "photon" that I know
> of. I can't help it if you don't like it.
I can offer other definitions of a term "photon":
a) The photons are particles - ghosts, the photons are
mathematical abstraction, which allow us to calculate
probability of interaction of an electromagnetic field and
substance.
b) The photon is mathematical abstraction, which in the implicit
(latent) form reflects existence of discrete power levels in
microsystems and as a corollary a capability of exchange by
electromagnetic energy between systems only by discrete portions.
> > What physical experiments without participation of substance you
> > can provide existence of _hypothetical_ particles of "photons" by?
> >
>
> I have no idea how to do a "physical experiment without
> participation of substance". Meditation, maybe?
>
> Maybe you should try posting to the newsgroup "without the
> abuse of substance".
_Einstein warned: "Most mistakes in philosophy and logic occur
because the human mind is apt to take the symbol for reality".
You never can prove, that the microsystem absorbs or radiates
electromagnetic energy as particles of photons. This problem is
similar to a problem of a proof of existence of a God. For this reason
it is a problem of a Religious faith. But the fruitfulness of your
life depends on selection of a religious physical faith. If you will
select as a religious physical faith a physical chimera, whether you
reach results, scheduled by you, in your life?
> > > For some reason, you not only ignore that sentence,
> > > but you go so far as to consistently snip it out of the quote
> > > in your responses.
> > >
> > You could read the reasons in the beginning of a thread,
> > reason here:
> > news:@
> >
> > From this place of a gradually step by step I shall begin to state
> > alternate explanation of Compton effect.
> >
>
> No, you don't.
You can play with a virtual radio interferometer.
If you will manage to explain a principle of operation of this type
of interferometer from the photon point of view, then:
I shall believe in existence of photons.
---------------------------------------
I think, that you can not explain
---------------------------------
a principle of operation of a virtual interferometer
from a photon point of view!
Give an evaluation to the size of a photon if the photon has
a wavelength 3.5 cm. and if the distance between antennas is equal
to diameter of globe. :O) !
Any attempts to explain the principle of operation of the given
type of the radio interferometer from a photon point of view
will suffer a fall.
The radio interferometer with independent writing of signals on
"slots" is a direct proof of a non-existence of photons in a nature.
By my former scientific chief Matveenko Leonid Ivanovich (he works
at the Space Research Institute RAS till now) in 1963 was invented
the absolutely new kind of the radio interferometer.
Main ideas of this type of the radio interferometer were:
1. A simultaneous independent recording of signals on each
separate antenna ("slot") on magnetic tapes;
2. " The interference picture " is received in the computer
as an outcome _ mathematical _ addings of signals recorded on
magnetic tapes;
3. The distance between antennas ("slots ") of a radio
interferometer can exceed diameter of the Earth. (For definit
wave length limiting distances between antennas, at which the
interference picture disappears, is not known until now!)
There are no problems for explanation of a principle of operation
of the radio interferometer with simultaneous independent writing
of signals from a wave point of view.
---------------------
Here for the first time clearly emerges, that for a hypothetical
particle of a photon there is no necessity to pass simultaneously
through both slots (antennas), since the virtual interference
abstractly or mathematically will be realized in the computer at
any convenient time hereafter. !!! It is the experimental fact!!!
How the admirers of a hypothesis of photons now will explain
an interference?
---------------------
But any attempts to explain a principle of operation of the given
type of the radio interferometer from a photon point of view will
suffer a fall for the following reasons:
1. In this case there is no real physical process of an
interference - interference will be realized abstractly
mathematically in the computer;
2. Give an evaluation to the size of a photon if the photon has
a wavelength 3.5 cm. and if the distance between antennas is equal
to diameter of globe. Average on space density of energy impresses,
the delay of time in all processes impress too.
The quantum microsystems can absorb energy only by quantum
portions. This energy is absorbed as electromagnetic waves by
quantum microsystems at random coincidence of orientation of a
spatial dynamic configuration of a quantum microsystem with
orientation of an electromagnetic wave. Analogy between a quantum
microsystem and directional antenna here is conducted in an
obvious kind.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start of message
From: Aleksandr Timofeev (t...@alpha.dnttm.rssi.ru)
Subject: PHOTONS DO NOT EXIST IN A NATURE
Newsgroups: sci.physics.particle
Date: 1999/01/19
On my sight, for consideration of an offered problem from all points of
view, the most approaching measuring instrument is the microwave interferometr
with superlong basis. I would name this type of an interferometer as an
interferometer with independent registration of signals in shoulders.
Fundamentally any other interferometer by nothing differs from
an interferometer considered below.
Principles of work.
The microwave interferometr with superlong basis consists of two radio
telescopes were on a very large distance from each other. Before experiment
or after him, the nuclear hours are synchronized. Each radio telescope writes
on a videotape a transformed radiation accepted by an antenna. Simultaneously
with a signal, the scores of time received from the standard of frequency,
are written on a videotape.
After ending experiment we have two videotapes with entries of a signal
and scores of time. The "interference picture" is received after data
processing of these videotapes on the computer.
There are two graphic schemes illustrating the description:
The microwave interferometer with superlong basis. Part 1.
Block scheme.
-> radio-telescope 1
->
-> parabolic antenna tape 1 clock 1
-> \
-> \ [ microwave ]
-> \ [ receiver + ] [videotape] [hydrogen ]
-> ) )--->[analog-to-digital]--->[recorder ]<---[frequency]
-> / [ converter ] ^ ^ [standard ]
-> / | |
-> / radio-signals time-marks
-> microwave
-> radiation
-> for synchronization of atomic clocks
-> [transportable caesium]
-> [ frequency standard ]
[snip] ====================================================================
-> radio-telescope 2
->
->
-> parabolic antenna 2 tape 2 clock 2
-> \
-> \ [ microwave ]
-> \ [ receiver + ] [videotape] [hydrogen ]
-> ) )--->[analog-to-digital]--->[recorder ]<---[frequency]
-> / [ converter ] ^ ^ [standard ]
-> / | |
-> / radio-signals time-marks
->
->
->
The microwave interferometer with superlong basis. Part 2.
----------------------------------------------------------
"Interference picture"
^
|
[videotape 1] ------> [ COMPUTER ] <---------- [videotape 2]
^ ^
| |
radio-telescope 1 <- synchronization clocks -> radio-telescope 2
Length of basis
|<----------------------------- {snip} ------------------------------->|
/^\ /^\
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ {snip} ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
| | | | | | | | | | | | ...... | | | | | | | | | | |
Noise microwave radiation
Flexible possibilities of a computer interference of signals.
1. Our interferometer has the right and left shoulders. The distance
between shoulders does not influence sensitivity of an interferometer. The
sensitivity of an interferometer to a signal is determined by the worse
receiver from both radio telescopes.
- The distance between shoulders of an interferometer can be no matter
how large. (This problem is reduced to a problem of transportation of clocks
of a synchronization).
2. The addition of signals is carried out in the computer, that allows
to apply no matter how complicated algorithms of addition of signals.
- In that specific case, we can arbitrary vary delay of signals in each
from a shoulders in any direction.
Conditionality of physical concept " an Interference picture ".
Here we shall be convinced of a celebration of a principle of a causality.
The events happening on slots of an interferometer have primary significance,
all other events happening in an interferometer have the status
secondary.
Let's analyze physical concept addition of signals in an interferometer.
The radiation incident on an input of an interferometer has the following
characteristics:
Wavefront; Frequency band; Spectral fluence of energy;
For each frequency:
Polarization; Amplitude; Phase; Stability.
The interferometer considered by us, is an interferometer with
independent registration of signals in shoulders and the process of addition
of signals is carried out in the computer. The phrase " process of addition
of signals is carried out in the computer " allows clearly to seize essence "
concepts of an interference picture " and source of an origin of this
concept. In the given type of an interferometer there is some arbitrariness
in choice by us of the law of addition of signals from the right and left
shoulders. In our case " the kind of an interference picture " depends on
the concrete law of addition of signals selected by us. In other kinds of
interferometers geometry (physical) construction of an interferometer
determines the law of addition of signals and " a kind of an interference
picture ".
Conclusion 1. For existence of the phenomenon of an interference the
first necessary condition is the registration of a signal for two sites (two
orifices) of a wavefront, which are located on some distance from each other.
Conclusion 2. For existence of the phenomenon of an interference the
second necessary condition is the filtration of frequency band of accepted
signals. The band of a signal should decrease with a diminution of a distance
between two sites (radiation flux) of a wavefront and on the contrary. The
stability of a source of a signal plays the role also.
Conclusion 3. For existence of the phenomenon of an interference the
third necessary condition is the sufficient total energy of an accepted signal
or it is necessary to accumulate a signal.
Conclusion 4. For existence of the phenomenon of an interference the fourth
necessary condition is the existence of the adder of signals from the right
and left shoulders.
Major parameters of an interferometer.
Give is summable stated above. Major parameters of an interferometer are:
Distance between antennas (slots);
Frequency band of registered signals;
Sensitivity of an interferometer.
Sensitivity of an interferometer.
The interferometer represents the macroscopic system.
What determines sensitivity of an interferometer? The effective square of
an antenna determines a stream of energy of a signal, than more square of an
antenna by that the greater stream of energy acts on an input of the
amplifier of a signal. The first cascade of the amplifier of a signal
determines quality of the amplifier. It represents the macroscopic system. If
the macroscopic system is in a thermodynamic equilibrium, it's the state is
characterized in temperature.
This temperature characterizes own noise of the amplifier. Energia of a
signal should exceed energy of own noise of the amplifier, therefore own
noise of the amplifier set threshold energy of a signal, which determines
sensitivity of an interferometer.
The minimum energy stream discovered by an interferometer is close
to 3*10-21 wt/m2, that is equivalent to several tens photons on a
square meter per one second (this value requires multiplication on square of
an antenna).
Conclusions.
1. In a considered microwave interferometer, the properties of a rather
sparse stream of absorbed photons are registered. (What is the time of life of
"photon" absorbed by an antenna?). Interferometer has "a very large mass".
2. Varying delay of time of a signal in the certain shoulder of an
interferometer, we define stability of frequency of a source in a direction
of a falling stream. The similar experiments frequently were carried out in
optics.
3. A new information we could receive increasing a distance between
radio telescopes. We could clarify on what distance on a wavefront the
correlation disappears (if disappears). The similar experience are not known
to me. For basis equal to the Earth's diameter, the correlation reliably
exists. The resolving power of the radio interferometer approximately in
100 - 1000 times is exceeded with a resolving power of an optical telescope.
4. We shall name photons, in a stream incident on an antenna, " as free
photons ". Let's name photons absorbed by an antenna, " as bound photons ".
Whether we know a structure " of bound photons "? To me it is not clear. I
definitely know, that the structure of an electromagnetic field is determined
by boundary conditions. For this reason the structure " of free photons
" should differ from a structure " of bound photons ". The detailses of
mechanisms of a radiation and absorption of an electromagnetic field are not
known to us. On my sight the photon is simply other title for mechanisms of
a radiation and absorption of an electromagnetic field. For this reason the
PHOTONS DO NOT EXIST IN A NATURE or, if it is pleasant more to you, in
a medium of an electromagnetic field the photons will be generated as virtual
particles.
We shall come to a conclusion:
The photons are particles - ghosts, the photons are mathematical
abstraction, which allow us to calculate probability of interaction of an
electromagnetic field and substance.
End of message
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > > 2. We always deal with quantum systems, if we try to describe
> > > > interaction of electromagnetic radiation with substance.
> > >
> > > Uh, I believe that was the point.
> >
> > But I am very much surprised, that you have not resulted a number
> > of classical outcomes, which refute a categoriality of my statement.
>
> Sorry, I can't parse that sentence into understandable English.
>
---
Aleksandr Timofeev
http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&q=msgid:3...
отредактировано 01.03.2005 18:50 |
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